They were the combat correspondents of their day, traveling and living with soldiers. And I'm saying, "That can't be possible. I couldn't afford that. Just feeling and looking at the objects, and. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: plan, and obviously, it's allthe vicissitudes of fate will intervene, I'm sure, if I live long enough, but provided that I don't need the resources to live and provided that I haven't had anI haven't found that Leonardo to buy where I need to sell everythingthen obviously, I willright now, everything is intended as a gift to the institution where it's on loan, if I die while anything is there, and thenand thereafter we probably willif we move things around, we'll probably make accommodations. Do they focus entirely on Rubens or Rubens and his, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Rubens and his orbit, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: to galleries was more limited? His oil paintings were immensely expressive. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I have two very young friends in Italy now. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no, no, no. The divorce began when I was four. And you know, the American catastrophe. CLIFFORD SCHORER: these are bigger projects. Is your name Jim?" I'm done. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, we have to pick our battles carefully. That's all. And I said, "Your only quid pro quo is I want you to send me a photo of you giving a lecture with a bunch of schoolkids sitting in front of you in front of the painting.". CLIFFORD SCHORER: This was '85, '86-ish, I think. And Iand Iyou know, obviously, there's a lot more material. Winslow Homer (1836-1910) was an American painter who is widely considered one of the greatest American painters of the 19th century. It wasit was a vestige of youth. It was a Saint Sebastian. The company, when I came to it, it had the legacy of all this real estate that it owned that was very valuable, and it had sold that real estate in 2008. Clifford Schorer is the Co-Founder & Director at Greenwich Energy Solutions. Researchers should note the timecode in this transcript is approximate. JUDITH RICHARDS: Thinking of boyhood passions, you talked about war, and did you ever want to collect armor? JUDITH RICHARDS: Oh, no, it's not that long. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And Konrad Bernheimer. I'd probably be better off. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I soldI sold maybe 16 pieces at auction. This is a Renaissance object. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a very different game. They've become broad-market marketing techniques. I tried to resign from the MFA, but they said it was no problem, and then Worcester actually asked me back ascreated an advisory role, advisory collections committee. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the stated goal has always been to die with one painting, the best painting I've ever owned. I think I turned 16 right aroundit was in that first year, so that's what I recall. It's fascinating to me to see the roots of sea travel that were established by that point to move these goods around at incredibly low cost. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So, you know, my grandmother was doting on me like a grandmother. But in general, we're not [laughs] going to be the maker of manners in that conversation. And they had to water it with a watering spray gun. I ended up there, and I made the deal with the devil, which was if I was first in my class, I could not go back. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no, no. And Iyou know, I doff my cap to them. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. We had 15 layers of varnish and retouches to take off, and underneath we had a masterpiece. Like, you knowand the same thing. JUDITH RICHARDS: To considering and, in fact, acquiring a partialyou were the head of a group of investors, JUDITH RICHARDS: And that's been since 2014, right? In 2019, Clifford Schorer, an entrepreneur and art dealer from Boston, stopped by the shop to purchase a last-minute gift. Joan Cusack, actress. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I did two things at the same time, and you're going to laugh. [Laughs.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And actually go to the apartments where they were. It took till 2011 to finally redeem myself [laughs] from that failure to buy the Ricci on the spot and decide to walk around and think about it, which was my biggest mistake ever. So I did start scaling that down, but I did always imagine every time I scaled it down, I would keep this sort of select group. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there a certainand that's a kind of a new model of art storage, with viewing facilities. And then I would say when I was aroundand this tied well into the art world. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the Lewis family. New York , NY 10010, Washington, D.C. Headquarters and Research Center. And so, yeah, I mean, there were a number of things, a number of hats that I had to shed to sort of, I think, stay within what. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Furnishings; hotels; office buildings full of furniture; artwork from lobbies; clocks from old buildings in Boston; you know, architectural elements that I salvage every time I do renovations on a building. "All in the Gay and Golden Weather", published June 12, 1869. I liked a Victorian palette. But I didn't buy it with much of a focus on the painting itself. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that's fair. That wasn't quite enough to buy much, but if you bought secondary names, which meant that you needed to know all the secondary names, and if you bought the best quality of those secondary names, you could do okay. JUDITH RICHARDS: I imagine you wanted to preserve the goodwill of the name of Agnew's. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. It was a fantasy shop that wasn't going to exist, but it was just an idea of how I would pass my time, because I need something to do. So it was a fun little entre into what the dealers did for a living. [They laugh.]. [00:22:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I bought it, yes. I mean, not, of course, of the quality of Randolph Hearst [laughs], but of a quantity, for sure. And, you know, there was a day when Agnew's had 40 employees and a full building in London and, you know, exhibitions going on 24-7 and had printmaking exercises, had contemporary artists doing things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: We do. So I go in there, find thisthere's this little Plexiglas box, and inside this Plexiglas box is the most breathtaking bronze I have ever seen. Your perspective is unusually broad, at least it used to be. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say serious, you mean in terms of business? CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, they close rooms. And those days are now over, because the auction companies have created a broader market. The shareholders did very well by the real estate. JUDITH RICHARDS: So that really transformed the Worcester Art Museum. I said, "I stand corrected." And, you know, you can do that, and if it's done aesthetically well, you can show somebody that, you know, you can still have the quality and think about what a bargain it is. Of course. Beyond. It was a lot of time, a time I still don't have, but it was a lot of time. Like, the Ladies' Club would go, and she would bring me on the bus. I don't think Ai Weiwei would have participated either. You know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Not long. He was a dealer and, you know, and an ennobled Italian, and it was in his collection. And pretty much after 13, I never went back home again. And they didn't have a real understanding. JUDITH RICHARDS: Wow. The Red School House - by Winslow Homer: The Turkey Buzzard - by Winslow Homer: The Veteran in a New Field - by Winslow Homer: The Water Fan - by Winslow Homer: The West Wind - by Winslow Homer: The Woodcutter - by Winslow Homer: Two Girls on the Beach Tynemouth - by Winslow Homer: Two Scouts - by Winslow Homer: Under the Coco Palm - by Winslow . I mean, it happens in New York all the time for shows. My Antwerp pre-1600 pictures were all on panel. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they have more problems now that they have more visitors, because the doors are opening and closing more, and more people means more humidity from the people. You can admire; if you want to buy, you pay our price and you buy. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Renovations; purchasing a company; selling a fiber optic switchyou know, whatever it isyou know, building a shelteryou know, we do all sorts of different sort of project-based companies, and nothing has cash flow, meaning I don't sell widgets and collect the 39-cent margin on a widget, and I don't sell X number widgets a year. But I met a few dealers that I still know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Because you were continually not only expanding the view, but you were also refining and improving the quality of each example? And I think it's working in a sense that people think of us a little bit differently than they did Agnew's under the old ownership, and I think we've come full circle; I think the five years that we've been operating in business, Anthony has done a wonderful job, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mentioned the Snyders House, the Rubens House, and one more. That's good." It was very early. I mean, you know, recently we did some work on Joseph Wright of Derby, and Cleveland bought our Joseph Wright of Derby. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. And she got tired [00:20:02]. [They laugh. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or the auction houses, yeah. [00:16:01]. So, you know, it's the conversation at the cocktail party, I suppose [laughs], but, you know, maybe not the cocktail party some people want to go to. And they say, "Well, 15 percent is outrageous! So we went down thereat 13, when he moved down there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Eastern Europe in the old days, almost always I would give a bribe to be taken through a museum where they frankly couldn't be bothered with any visitors. And every day I would pass through Richmond. So in other words . Howwhat was the process of that reattribution officially? That book should be out very soon, actually. Massachusetts native Clifford Schorer said the painting was used as security for a loan he made to Selina Varney (now Rendall) and that he was now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. Winslow Homer. You know, bags full of them. And that's a big question in the art market; you know, having the liability for everything you've ever sold coming back to say, "Wait a minute, this is a fake," or, "This attribution is wrong," or, you know [00:40:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Or, "This is Nazi loot," and. It wasit was, you know, to me it was likehaving the Balkans come apart, the way they had before, was something I wanted to learn about. But if something great pops up in our little cabal, it immediately travels up to their level. And I had learned four or five other programming languages and shown proficiency in them, just because I knew that they'd be useful. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, that's like $100,000 to half a million, and that's not the weakest. JUDITH RICHARDS: But you started out displaying these 300? JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you ever kept, or do you keep, diaries or journals about your collecting activity? And I thought that was very, veryit was really very nice, because I would just come over and talk about art. Listing of the Day Location: Provincetown, MassachusettsPrice: $3.399 million This starkly modern and dramatic home was built in 2013 as a guesthouse to an adjacent flat-roofed, glass . You know, something like that, where I'm just fortunate enough to be at the right place in history at the right moment when scholarship is what it is, to be able to sort of take something and lift it up out of the quagmire and say, "Look, this is correct. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you bought that first painting, did you very quickly continue buying paintings? It was one of those years where you go home completely dejected. I wasI was alwaysintimidated was not really my MO. JUDITH RICHARDS: And what was Ruth's last name? JUDITH RICHARDS: This is on your father's side? I mean, I think you'll see. You can have that kind of one really good Dutch picture, and you can still have your Abstract Expressionism, and you can still have a modern space, a livable space. JUDITH RICHARDS: You're serving as your own contractor? So it's more interesting early on in American history because they were here very early. Clifford owns the following phone numbers: (617) 262-0166 (Verizon New England, Inc), (617) 469-5654. I mean, the boothjust one masterpiece after another. [They laugh.]. And also, there were many dealers where I could suss out instantly that they knew absolutely nothing, and they were talking nonsense, and that drove me mad, so I would literally just turn around on my heel and walk out the booth. JUDITH RICHARDS: So how long did you work there as a programmer? So all of the art that he did have was gone. And I understand why; you know, some of the scholars are superannuated, and they're just not in the game anymore, and there's a verythere has been a very forceful cabal of dealers who've manipulated the market. Menu. But, of course, the ones who did press me in a different wayand I can names, but I won'tthe ones who kind of tried to sort of turn that conversation into a purchasing experience or get lost, they were out of my book before the 15 minutes was by, because I knew they were charlatans. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you ever tried to, or wanted to, learn how to do any of the kinds of ceramic work or painting or whatever yourself to see what's entailed? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of course, I saw their objects. Hunter Cole, artist. But I wouldn't have purchased the ongoing operation of the business. I'm trying to think what other fairs we've done. Winslow Homer was an American landscape painter and printmaker, best known for his marine subjects. There they prepared the fish for despatch to the fishmarket in . I was in London less so. JUDITH RICHARDS: Okay, justI suddenly wasn't hearing the mic. And he bought it for the museum. He just built, I think, the first public museum in Antwerp. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My father was a businessman. I said, "Get on it," you know. So it comes up at Sotheby's. I just, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I went to a boarding school, and then I went to live with my grandparents, who had moved by that point to Virginia. So it was at that time, the seeds were planted to grow that institution visitation to 200,000, and that's happened. So, yeah. In other words, you're trying to build a collection that educates you, that is much more important than just the visual experience of it, that gives a sense of art history. High quality Clifford Schorer Winslow Homer-inspired gifts and merchandise. [00:10:02]. So we both get on planes, and he goes and finds pictures in Berlin, here, there, and everywhere, and we pull together. And heby the time I knew him, he had retired as, I think, the 50- or 60-year chief engineer of Grumman Aerospace, sofor their plants, not for their aircraft manufacturing. Clifford Schorer Adjunct Professor; The Eugene Lang Entrepreneurship Center at Columbia Business School. JUDITH RICHARDS: What year would that be? You know, when you happen to be at the moment when something is coming out of the ground [00:22:00]. Once the stock reduces by half add in . I had to advocate and argue for it, and that did sort of achieve the goal I had set for it, which is a relatively universal acceptance. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And some, you know, lifting, but I usually don't let it get to flaking. I would go to HtelDrouot and spend the entire day, day after day after day. So it was quite easy to understand the. That is the way they were then, yes. He's the responsible party, solely responsible. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Frustrating, enjoyable, you know, disheartening. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. I don't know where that came from, but it was an instinctive sense. However, the first thing I seriously collected as an adultso, age 17 comes, I start a company, and within six months I'm making money. ], I mean, I remember I got it back to Boston, and it was hangingit's hanging in the photos. Wikimedia Commons. Investments. So, JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "we," you mean you and. You're very involved in it, and you've developed this expertise in computer programming. So you have to have a different model. And then it would've been'87 would've been the class that I was coming in. So, you know, in a sense, there was ajust a moment, and that momentif that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have bought the company. Or was it a matter of opportunity, that you would look at what was out there and decide what you wanted and give. Death record, obituary, funeral notice and information about the deceased person. It was [Carlo] Maratti. And I would see the same objects pop up here and there, and I would know exactly where they came from. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I moved around quite a bit. I mean, I would certainly still be able to collect, and probably more successfully, because I would be focused like a laser beam on sort of one thing, you know, one idea. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, until there was an opportunity to reallythere were two opportunities in my entire lifetime which were not multimillionaire, you know, games to really sort of acquire one major specimen. JUDITH RICHARDS: or any of that sort of stuff . And I decided my aesthetic. I was walking through the room, and they were giving this lecture, so I sat for the lecture, of course. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that the first time you've encountered that kind of [laughs] situation? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So they depict the crucifixion scene as a maypole party. If they own the work, they would certainly love to have any preparatory works that relate to it in their PDP collections, in their works on paper collection. You know, there are certainly moments in the '60s and '70s when scholarship might have been a little weaker, and they missed something, but in general, right after the war, when everyone else was profiteering, the firm didn't. So when I turned 15 and a half, I think, I was legally able to leave high school. And Julian's now fully retired, but, yes, I mean, we had a long handover period. So it's extremely exciting thatyou know, and I believe 23 of the paintings are known. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were traveling a lot in the '80s. I mean, if someone told me, every year, I'm going to buy one great Dutch picture, I'd say, Well, that's a fool's philosophy in terms of collecting. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the insurance? Not that my collection is that important, but even the idea that I'm sort of peeling off the wheat from the chaff in any way. So we did something, you know, I thought rather radical, which was, you know, Anthony's idea, a very good idea, which was to showBill Viola was focused on martyrdom by the four elements, and we constructed this entire idea about martyrdom to build an exhibition around. And why not? And then I'd come back and make a lot of money for three weeks [laughs], and then I'd travel for three weeks. [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: We brought back together some pictures that hadn't been together since the 1870s. So, yes, I spent a lot of time with history in general, not art history, and was always interested in history. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I know, for example, Ordovas Gallery was able to do a Rembrandt and Francis Bacon show, and there I think the motivation was they got the Bacon. It just wasn'tI mean until 1999when, unfortunately, the auction houses forced me to come out of the closet, thatthat's really the only time, you know, when the Christie's and the Sotheby's, when they became so socially engaged with me, and they were trying to drag me out, you know, that they werethey were seeing a younger person buying things at a sale, and they wanted to know who they are, and what theyyou know, they're doing market research, and in their market research, they want to drag you to a dinner and plop you next to the ambassador and, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there any indication onit's a loan. Absolutely. My role was in figuring out the real estate problems that the company had, the finance problems that the company had, the management issues that the company had, but not the art questions. Lotte Laserstein was a Weimar German artist, a female artistamazing artistand Agnew's had sort of rediscovered her in the 1960s and then did a show, a monographic show, in the 1980s. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I get my screw gun and I open whatever I want to open whenever I want to look at it, so, yes. I can point out that prices at auction are still 40 percent below the price that a well-executed private sale treaty could be done at, if the buyer and the seller are fully informed and have all the information, understand the importance or lack of importance of the work, you know, the things that an auction doesn't allow for. Matter of fact, for a great deal of time in speaking to all three of them, they didn't know who I was. So, you know, it was quite ait was quite a big disparity in age. Is that something that you are thinking about? So they had had merger discussions in the '70s to merge the institutions, and the Higgins finally ran out of runway. I've got some Portuguese examples. CLIFFORD SCHORER: For paintings, well, we have to divide that now. And often. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I was able to make some pretty interesting and exciting discoveries, things I recognized were by the artist that others may not have, and I was able to buy them. And I wasI was really kind of bringing it all to conclusion. That'syou know, those are all possibilities. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, absolutely. So I wrote that program in a month. I mean, I think if youwell, I guess, in scale, Colnaghi and Agnew's were the two large players that had the large back of house. There wereby the time, I mean, by the time Ithe irony of the story is that I then became a bankruptcy liquidator. The whole family went down to greet the boats, transfer the fish to their baskets, and haul the catch back up to the village. So, you know, I did that kind of loop aesthetically, where I went from the filigree to the shadow. And usually it would be a letter at that point. JUDITH RICHARDS: That just gives me a [laughs] direction. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: You didn't feel encumbered? JUDITH RICHARDS: And issues or concerns about it, too. We didsoand I decided to do my homage to Carlo Crivelli. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I'm thinking 16 years. You know, it clouds my view of the artwork. A long time ago. So I actuallyas part of my company, I had a 70,000-square-foot warehouse, which grew to be over a million square feet by the time I quit. Are there any other thoughts you have about the responsibilities of a collector, at least in your field? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I was interested in history primarily, if I had my druthers. JUDITH RICHARDS: Was that the firstso you said that was the first painting? They said, "If you take the car, you'll be murdered." I usually do n't let it Get to flaking to take off, and the finally... 2019, clifford SCHORER Adjunct Professor ; the Eugene Lang Entrepreneurship Center clifford schorer winslow homer Columbia business School 's not long! 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